The scene, intellectual property and double standards
category: offtopic [glöplog]
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..and again, you are wrong. :) Please stop stating things as facts when you obviously have no idea of what you are talking about.but since its illegal to remove the drm
i'm gonna sell a printed copy of this thread on ebay next week!
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buy from the authors themselves.
I'd glady do so if it were possible (labels/distributors do take their share, right ?)
In reality, the "artists" get 10 cent of a dollar for their work (at best).
Ten years ago I truly wished that piracy would become impossible - no more
free copies of Window, Word, Photoshop, Lightwave, you name it.
That would've sucked, wouldn't it ?
But it surely would have made you consider alternatives (OSS, PD, Shareware..)
I am not gonna be a hypocrite and tell you that piracy is wrong and wanking
makes you blind.
No, Piracy is a good thing as long as you use it for educational purposes
and do not make any money w/ it.
Last but not least, hasn't everyone of you enjoyed MAME, for example ?
most of the DRM'd, copyprotected apps and games released nowadays will probably
vanish from history once they are off the shelf.
As far as am I concerned, I respect the licenses for all the software I use in the
long run. Whether it may be open source, commercial, public domain (if that answers
your question, Frost).
I also think that the "copyright" on e.g. software should expire after ten years
of its release.
this thread is full of LOLs :)
@gloom
seems norway is more liberal then, good for you
seems norway is more liberal then, good for you
@maali
oh noes you dont or i will sue your ass.
we can talk about a revenue share, tho.
;P
oh noes you dont or i will sue your ass.
we can talk about a revenue share, tho.
;P
wysiwtf: indeed it is, now please stop making generalizations and trying to make them apply to "everyone", when clearly, they don't.
but im having so much fun =)
♫ Yo ho, yo ho. A pirate’s life for me. ♫
ok eventually it is time to put the discussion to an end, it seems to annoy certain people ;)
was fun tho.
was fun tho.
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I'd glady do so if it were possible (labels/distributors do take their share, right ?)
sites like bandcamp and cdbaby take a ~10% share, which i think is fairly reasonable. i'm not sure how big of a cut steam takes for games.
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ok eventually it is time to put the discussion to an end, it seems to annoy certain people ;)
was fun tho.
Lol, so now you are hiding you being uninformed about p much everything that was being discussed behind a puppetmaster defense?
Nice! :D
well i initally stated that im not an expert and that everything i write is my opinion.
regarding the differences in copyright laws in various european countries this is obviously even more the case and that ice is getting to thin for me to walk on.
apart from that my opinion still stands but im not offended by people who see it different and im sure they have valid points all over the place.
im not "backing out" (i cannot resist to open my mouth anyway ;) but i dont have much to add without repeating myself the nth time so i decided it may be better if i dont.
i think my posts have spawned some very interesting follow-up-posts and opinions, so even if not everything i state is 100% correct and verified i hope it was a good read for everyone (it sure was for me).
if you like to teach me manners and morale i suggest doing so over a beer at outline :)
regarding the differences in copyright laws in various european countries this is obviously even more the case and that ice is getting to thin for me to walk on.
apart from that my opinion still stands but im not offended by people who see it different and im sure they have valid points all over the place.
im not "backing out" (i cannot resist to open my mouth anyway ;) but i dont have much to add without repeating myself the nth time so i decided it may be better if i dont.
i think my posts have spawned some very interesting follow-up-posts and opinions, so even if not everything i state is 100% correct and verified i hope it was a good read for everyone (it sure was for me).
if you like to teach me manners and morale i suggest doing so over a beer at outline :)
So let's get back to the subject of ripping.
I have strong anti-creditist beliefs. This whole system of wanting to be credited for an intangible piece of work is a perversion of our society. If I copy someone's work in Photoshop, I'm not taking it away from anyone… but instead of putting this ability to good use you are criticised for doing so. Instead of embracing the technical achievement of the Clone brush they are cut down to protect the ego of the original artist.
The ways artists are credited for their efforts are outdated and don't seem to work anymore - we should find new ones which do and are fair for both sides. Also, it means that their work gets more exposure and is preserved for future generations yada yada.
There, I've stated my beliefs about how things should work, which means I can automatically apply them in the real world, and now I'm morally allowed to rip their work. Yay!
I have strong anti-creditist beliefs. This whole system of wanting to be credited for an intangible piece of work is a perversion of our society. If I copy someone's work in Photoshop, I'm not taking it away from anyone… but instead of putting this ability to good use you are criticised for doing so. Instead of embracing the technical achievement of the Clone brush they are cut down to protect the ego of the original artist.
The ways artists are credited for their efforts are outdated and don't seem to work anymore - we should find new ones which do and are fair for both sides. Also, it means that their work gets more exposure and is preserved for future generations yada yada.
There, I've stated my beliefs about how things should work, which means I can automatically apply them in the real world, and now I'm morally allowed to rip their work. Yay!
heh, you seem to be quite sensivitive when it comes to being correct :D
here's a picture of a beer. that one might cheer you up ;)
.
here's a picture of a beer. that one might cheer you up ;)
.gasman:
hmm i get your irony but i dont think you can just take one thing for the other.
giving credits where they are due is showing respect for the work you obviously found to be good enough to use it for your own.
as far as i know the warez scene never claimed to be the authors of the content they release. stolen routines and cracks have happened but are usually resolved with an entertaining (and childish) .nfo battle ;D
hmm i get your irony but i dont think you can just take one thing for the other.
giving credits where they are due is showing respect for the work you obviously found to be good enough to use it for your own.
as far as i know the warez scene never claimed to be the authors of the content they release. stolen routines and cracks have happened but are usually resolved with an entertaining (and childish) .nfo battle ;D
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giving credits where they are due is showing respect for the work you obviously found to be good enough to use it for your own.
Just like paying for software, then (if that's what the author asked for). Where's the difference?
the difference is i have an unlimited supply of giving credits (well, time is an issue here but you get the point) but not an unlimited supply of money at hand.
wow, all those pages my comments sparkled. ain't got time to read them all but:
So why do you never see developers of successful games cry about this?
Wysiwtf points it out several times,
1. ppl are willing to pay for stuff they love. even if they can get it for free. A simple (non readiohead) example: All my releases on bandcamp avalible for free but with the option to pay got an avarage of 1,3 payed downloads for each free download.
2. kids can seldom pay for stuff and their parents can't cope up with all the stuff kids want. If you make a game for a young audience, be prepared for this and stop crying.
3. there is so much software, music, movies, series and games coming out and few could pay for the full amount of what we consume. If your shit don't sell, do better shit and the percentage of people ready to pay for it will rise. The point that music-sales went up 30% last year, that the movie-industry is doing better than ever etc proves that.
whatever arguments you come up with, it all winds down to: if your software dont sell, you suck, make it better. Others are making it big time and you aint. you suck, face it, seriously, you suck. you can blame piracy, communism, kids, technology, evolution, internet and warez-scene how much you want, you still suck because your software didnt make it high enough in peoples -by capitalism crushed priority-budgets- that it was worth paying for. so you suck, you suck and the capitalism you defend suck. but you probably suck the most. so stfu and make a better software, or a demo about it. Yes, capitalism is competition, and you are loosing, you suck, yes, thats you, you suck, you loose, work harder or stfu. piracy is capitalism. capitalism is piracy. your failiure is your fault. yes, thats you. you suck, you fail, so stfu.
and all I wanted to point out was that you are confusing the warezscene with the much bigger phenomena of piracy. 95% of the releases spread & downloaded doesn't even originate from the scene anymore. maybe you noticed how feds switched their attention from warezgroups to p2p-sites like, 8 years ago?
oh, and some rants:
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Because they grow up, start seeing the big picture and realize that there's more to life than 0day warez and free as in stolen beer software when their momma doesn't pay the bills anymore? I saw the piracy numbers for our latest game, I saw the server logs populated with pirated clients and I visited the forums where the said pirates lurked and talked among themselves. At that point I lost all faith in any kind of justification for it.
So why do you never see developers of successful games cry about this?
Wysiwtf points it out several times,
1. ppl are willing to pay for stuff they love. even if they can get it for free. A simple (non readiohead) example: All my releases on bandcamp avalible for free but with the option to pay got an avarage of 1,3 payed downloads for each free download.
2. kids can seldom pay for stuff and their parents can't cope up with all the stuff kids want. If you make a game for a young audience, be prepared for this and stop crying.
3. there is so much software, music, movies, series and games coming out and few could pay for the full amount of what we consume. If your shit don't sell, do better shit and the percentage of people ready to pay for it will rise. The point that music-sales went up 30% last year, that the movie-industry is doing better than ever etc proves that.
whatever arguments you come up with, it all winds down to: if your software dont sell, you suck, make it better. Others are making it big time and you aint. you suck, face it, seriously, you suck. you can blame piracy, communism, kids, technology, evolution, internet and warez-scene how much you want, you still suck because your software didnt make it high enough in peoples -by capitalism crushed priority-budgets- that it was worth paying for. so you suck, you suck and the capitalism you defend suck. but you probably suck the most. so stfu and make a better software, or a demo about it. Yes, capitalism is competition, and you are loosing, you suck, yes, thats you, you suck, you loose, work harder or stfu. piracy is capitalism. capitalism is piracy. your failiure is your fault. yes, thats you. you suck, you fail, so stfu.
and all I wanted to point out was that you are confusing the warezscene with the much bigger phenomena of piracy. 95% of the releases spread & downloaded doesn't even originate from the scene anymore. maybe you noticed how feds switched their attention from warezgroups to p2p-sites like, 8 years ago?
oh, and some rants:
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<- yes, free public transportation, especially in metropoles, should be as obvious as human rights.So - not paying for transportation is also ok? ;)
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<-- Gloom just made it into my top 5 retarded statements list. That shit got "rape cant lead to abortion" quality all over it. congratulations gloom. There is nothing inherit in capitalism that segregates into groups of "rich" vs "poor".
wow, just read 2 more pages and saw that KB put my words in text a lot better than I managed to do.
damn what a blatant and uninspired rip-of I just did of his statement. someone should bash me in a new pouet thread and I should pay kb royalties.
let me distribute it for free in a true evil warezscene spirit:
and without credits!
damn what a blatant and uninspired rip-of I just did of his statement. someone should bash me in a new pouet thread and I should pay kb royalties.
let me distribute it for free in a true evil warezscene spirit:
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Bottom line: You don't earn enough moneys? GTFO. (or don't GTFO and do it for the art)
and without credits!
rape cant lead to pregnancy, not abortion. nice typo though. I'll get a patent for that one.
I have an idea; I'm going to make a demo about this...
Could everyone in here who is a software developer and complains about piracy and the warezscene please list all the software you have been working on that has been commercially released? gargaj, preacher, keops etc. no bashing, I promise, I am just very very curious.
JuvenileShitHead: not that I'm complaining about warez, but I got this reference... back in other company I founded, we made some VJ software (this was 2004 or so). It worked with Windows and used some heavily customized XP (we paid for that license)... it also had some special hardware (not-so-common video capture cards, etc.) so having it without the hardware was kind of pointless (the software would not run)... we sold it along with the hardware to clubs (directly, no marketing network, we had our own commercials).
Even on that situation, we actually had proof of some people (customers of our customers actually) who had tried to pirate the software (for absolute no reason since it couldn't be properly run without that hardware).
We even had some support questions about our software not running properly (they were trying to run it on a different machine without the dedicated hardware)... and this is from customers who make really big money (big ibiza clubs, particulary), these ain't kids who can't afford $30.
At least in Spain, the "free culture" is too commonplace and "if you can get it for free, why pay for it" seems to be embodied on people's mind (generally speaking, of course, not 100% of people).
I'd love to see figures (I don't have them), but I'm sure piracy on android phones (where apps tend to cost $1-$5) must be greatly extended around here... I only know three people (yes, three) who have actually paid for their commercial Android software.
As I said, I'm not complaining... I, as a developer, have never worked on massive titles so I don't really have any experience on how it affects MY software (just that anecdote over there), but I can actually see it as a problem for massive title developers.
Even on that situation, we actually had proof of some people (customers of our customers actually) who had tried to pirate the software (for absolute no reason since it couldn't be properly run without that hardware).
We even had some support questions about our software not running properly (they were trying to run it on a different machine without the dedicated hardware)... and this is from customers who make really big money (big ibiza clubs, particulary), these ain't kids who can't afford $30.
At least in Spain, the "free culture" is too commonplace and "if you can get it for free, why pay for it" seems to be embodied on people's mind (generally speaking, of course, not 100% of people).
I'd love to see figures (I don't have them), but I'm sure piracy on android phones (where apps tend to cost $1-$5) must be greatly extended around here... I only know three people (yes, three) who have actually paid for their commercial Android software.
As I said, I'm not complaining... I, as a developer, have never worked on massive titles so I don't really have any experience on how it affects MY software (just that anecdote over there), but I can actually see it as a problem for massive title developers.
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if your software dont sell, you suck, make it better. Others are making it big time and you aint. you suck, face it, seriously, you suck. you can blame piracy, communism, kids, technology, evolution, internet and warez-scene how much you want, you still suck because your software didnt make it high enough in peoples -by capitalism crushed priority-budgets- that it was worth paying for. so you suck, you suck and the capitalism you defend suck. but you probably suck the most. so stfu and make a better software, or a demo about it. Yes, capitalism is competition, and you are loosing, you suck, yes, thats you, you suck, you loose, work harder or stfu. piracy is capitalism. capitalism is piracy. your failiure is your fault. yes, thats you. you suck, you fail, so stfu.
Then I guess burglary is capitalism too. If someone breaks into your house and steals everything you own and you don't have insurance, then you suck because you didn't earn enough money to have extra savings in the bank. It's not the fault of the burglar - they're just enacting the process of capitalism. You suck, you lose, work harder or stfu. Right?
(and before anyone points out that theft and copyright infringement are different because the latter doesn't deprive you of material goods: yes, I know. It's called an analogy.)
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Could everyone in here who is a software developer and complains about piracy and the warezscene please list all the software you have been working on that has been commercially released? gargaj, preacher, keops etc. no bashing, I promise, I am just very very curious.
If that applies to me: I do web development, so my software isn't "commercially released" as such. (FWIW, my point here is not "the warezscene is evil bad and wrong", it's "defending the warezscene while condemning the practice of ripping makes you a hypocrite".)