a new breed of artists...
category: general [glöplog]
passion and love in editions of 5000.
in the age of 6 million copies of gta4, 5000 seems like a small number to me.
(Although I think it's a huge overestimation of the market, I think 500 is a more reasonable ballpark)
I've been pondering for a while whether to buy glycee prints of this guy's works. (Oh my, it's made with flash! It probably can't take more than a couple of hours to make! I'd love to see the same rationalization against selling photography, after all, it only takes a couple hundreds of milliseconds for photons to print themselves on the CCD)
You've made me do it.
(Although I think it's a huge overestimation of the market, I think 500 is a more reasonable ballpark)
I've been pondering for a while whether to buy glycee prints of this guy's works. (Oh my, it's made with flash! It probably can't take more than a couple of hours to make! I'd love to see the same rationalization against selling photography, after all, it only takes a couple hundreds of milliseconds for photons to print themselves on the CCD)
You've made me do it.
i'd take highres prints of a flash algo alot more seriously then a piece of software. i still wouldnt be willing to pay 125 bucks for it though.
btw how do you justify to yourself that a screensaver made by 1 person in a couple of days is a more valuable asset than a videogame made by a team of hundreds in a couple of years? i mean, i don't want to get into an aesthetic debate in here, but clearly one took alot more effort to produce, is a lot more in demand by interested public and yet, it's cheaper, it doesnt make any sense by following your praised supply and demand laws. oh i get it, i guess it's because it's completly different products, where one you could put it full screen and look at what the designers made and the other.. you could put it full screen and look at what the designers made.
btw how do you justify to yourself that a screensaver made by 1 person in a couple of days is a more valuable asset than a videogame made by a team of hundreds in a couple of years? i mean, i don't want to get into an aesthetic debate in here, but clearly one took alot more effort to produce, is a lot more in demand by interested public and yet, it's cheaper, it doesnt make any sense by following your praised supply and demand laws. oh i get it, i guess it's because it's completly different products, where one you could put it full screen and look at what the designers made and the other.. you could put it full screen and look at what the designers made.
its more expensive because its embodying a secret message from the beyond in a form of a subtle aesthetic vision that contraposes the creative flow in constrained mean in a multisensorial display of interactive media. only takes less ammount of time to create, doesnt seem creative at all and comes in a limited edition box!
ps: referring to the other longer post...
yea, they would deserve more respect if they would provide an 'artisic service' rather than instant add-to-cart-art... that would be much more successful, i think. for institutions or modern architects integrating generative skys behind the plastic bay eara in the shopping mall. or in the hospital, flatscreens over the each bed visualizing the fading heartbeat. kind of a coder-fire-hire service. it could even be marketable in a lower segment. like: send them an e-mail describing your desired mood/style/color + affordable price, and reas codes up some unique artworks for you. modern deco art factory style. that would work out, maybe. to think it further, he could employ unemployed persons and recruited them as governmental art factory coders, copying unique masterworks by hand incorporating unique glitch by mistake from time to time. making the ancient hard worker craftmanship modern again. pure dedication, pure code meditation :D
agree. all other forms of paid access wouldn't make sense. voluntary donations doesn't work out in most cases, and yea, it's computer stuff, the vast majority of all people doesn't see any higher values in screenbased works anyway, computers are working machines, or otherwise for hopless wankers or gamers, but art - what has art to do with computers? nobody spends money for something like that on a free basis, it wouldn't be considered as a good deed, so to say. in that sense, these softwareFARTspace guys are fairly realistic, aiming direclty to a target audience which is either only interested in deco for their living room (and can afford some luxery of course) or some older snobs interested in special new trends (without too much knowledge of the background) and no need for deeper content or meaning, simple formal art. that site looks snobby, just in right way for that sort of "art", but at the end it's simply pretentious tec deco for ambitious working people who think, all what they are capable to buy, they also deserve too (money gives you the right to change the system, but most hardcore consumers aren't aware of that fact, so they don't use the power in good way, just my opion, not money is the evil, free replicant narrow-minded consumers are the problem)
ps, you change that fact by MAKING open internet! one of the good things, i can believe in :))
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by customizing a piece to an actual client in need, taking a designer role instead of the absent creator
yea, they would deserve more respect if they would provide an 'artisic service' rather than instant add-to-cart-art... that would be much more successful, i think. for institutions or modern architects integrating generative skys behind the plastic bay eara in the shopping mall. or in the hospital, flatscreens over the each bed visualizing the fading heartbeat. kind of a coder-fire-hire service. it could even be marketable in a lower segment. like: send them an e-mail describing your desired mood/style/color + affordable price, and reas codes up some unique artworks for you. modern deco art factory style. that would work out, maybe. to think it further, he could employ unemployed persons and recruited them as governmental art factory coders, copying unique masterworks by hand incorporating unique glitch by mistake from time to time. making the ancient hard worker craftmanship modern again. pure dedication, pure code meditation :D
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i'd much rather see something digital get a flatrate access fee (like you pay a museum entrance)
agree. all other forms of paid access wouldn't make sense. voluntary donations doesn't work out in most cases, and yea, it's computer stuff, the vast majority of all people doesn't see any higher values in screenbased works anyway, computers are working machines, or otherwise for hopless wankers or gamers, but art - what has art to do with computers? nobody spends money for something like that on a free basis, it wouldn't be considered as a good deed, so to say. in that sense, these softwareFARTspace guys are fairly realistic, aiming direclty to a target audience which is either only interested in deco for their living room (and can afford some luxery of course) or some older snobs interested in special new trends (without too much knowledge of the background) and no need for deeper content or meaning, simple formal art. that site looks snobby, just in right way for that sort of "art", but at the end it's simply pretentious tec deco for ambitious working people who think, all what they are capable to buy, they also deserve too (money gives you the right to change the system, but most hardcore consumers aren't aware of that fact, so they don't use the power in good way, just my opion, not money is the evil, free replicant narrow-minded consumers are the problem)
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where statute and connections play a very high role in getting inside the gig
ps, you change that fact by MAKING open internet! one of the good things, i can believe in :))
Nice works... I don't know why but it feels less strange to see high prices on high quality prints of digital drawings. I suppose it's because that's a more traditional kind of product / media.
Of course at the moment I prefer trying to do some rendering/printings by myself rather than buying one of those... (trying with proce55ing-->pdf atm)
I like the idea of getting some sw creations to "materialize" on i.e. a poster :)
Of course at the moment I prefer trying to do some rendering/printings by myself rather than buying one of those... (trying with proce55ing-->pdf atm)
I like the idea of getting some sw creations to "materialize" on i.e. a poster :)
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governmental art factory coders
hmmm... :)
i think some big touchscreen thin lcd screen with limited controls and some playstation network-ish online store would be a pretty fancy alternative for a painting. i'd pay up for sure.
PS, then how do you feel about only paying 8€ to go see a movie that cost half a billion to make, when you might pay close to 400€ for say, a 70€ game (gta4) + the console that is required to play it? (entry fee?)
(Which reminds me I've paid quite a lot more than 125€ just to watch demos. (Which took only a couple of hours to make?))
It's very important to realize that the individual price is very rarely correlated to cost, especially in such uncertain ventures such as entertainment. J.K Rowling does not cut the price to zero when she has sold enough books to cover her cost.
However, if you wanted to evaluate the cost, you could use industry figures. And in that case if say, the work took 5md to make. (Which I think is a quite low figure, some of casey reas' work must have taken longer overall)
Evaluating what a man-day represents in terms of cost depends on the cost of living in the particular area. With a man-day cost of ~400€ (it's probably at least twice if not five times lower than what the industry would use) it's 2000€ "worth" of artwork.
Which you're getting for less! And if you're thinking they're ripping people off or are being greedy, well, I'm pretty sure they won't sell all of those 5000 copies. Especially *not* for each artwork.
What is going to happen is that maybe *one* work or *one* artist would be very successful and maybe sell close to the number of copies, and all of the others will barely sell 1 copy.
(Example: book sales. In France most book authors don't sell more than 1,000 copies, whereas the top book sold 1,300,000 copies, which is already 7 times more than the number of copies sold for the top 20th book in France, with around 200,000 copies. Imagine what the normal, non successful book sells!)
Your work-customization idea would multiply the costs of the individual copy...
(Which reminds me I've paid quite a lot more than 125€ just to watch demos. (Which took only a couple of hours to make?))
It's very important to realize that the individual price is very rarely correlated to cost, especially in such uncertain ventures such as entertainment. J.K Rowling does not cut the price to zero when she has sold enough books to cover her cost.
However, if you wanted to evaluate the cost, you could use industry figures. And in that case if say, the work took 5md to make. (Which I think is a quite low figure, some of casey reas' work must have taken longer overall)
Evaluating what a man-day represents in terms of cost depends on the cost of living in the particular area. With a man-day cost of ~400€ (it's probably at least twice if not five times lower than what the industry would use) it's 2000€ "worth" of artwork.
Which you're getting for less! And if you're thinking they're ripping people off or are being greedy, well, I'm pretty sure they won't sell all of those 5000 copies. Especially *not* for each artwork.
What is going to happen is that maybe *one* work or *one* artist would be very successful and maybe sell close to the number of copies, and all of the others will barely sell 1 copy.
(Example: book sales. In France most book authors don't sell more than 1,000 copies, whereas the top book sold 1,300,000 copies, which is already 7 times more than the number of copies sold for the top 20th book in France, with around 200,000 copies. Imagine what the normal, non successful book sells!)
Your work-customization idea would multiply the costs of the individual copy...
knos: as a 360 fanboy (uh) i must add that 400€ is the pliysattano, you only need a 200€ X360 arcade version (with a 10€ cheap hdmi cable) and gta4 could easily be found at 59€ :p (and some would say you need only a dual layer blank...)
as you say the sales price of entertainment and cultural products can not be mathematically related to cost price, 70€ may be cheap for a gta gaming experience by thinking of the millions spent into development, but it's still expensive compared to the legal minimum wage and everyday life cost, whereas console gaming is supposed to target mass market.
on a side note, can any 360 dev tell me wether the facultative HD of the xbox is used by the system to cache game data, in other words wether the 360 with HD is faster ? i guess that the system may also use the faster memory card to cache little data ? i couldn't find any accurate information about it on the internets.
as you say the sales price of entertainment and cultural products can not be mathematically related to cost price, 70€ may be cheap for a gta gaming experience by thinking of the millions spent into development, but it's still expensive compared to the legal minimum wage and everyday life cost, whereas console gaming is supposed to target mass market.
on a side note, can any 360 dev tell me wether the facultative HD of the xbox is used by the system to cache game data, in other words wether the 360 with HD is faster ? i guess that the system may also use the faster memory card to cache little data ? i couldn't find any accurate information about it on the internets.
i meant HDD.
how do you measure the average work cost of an entertainment piece exactly anyways? average profit margin. always leads to the perpetuation of the entertaining best sellers and name pimping in detriment of actual useful, enlightening or thought provocative content, to hit the market the pieces suffer in quality and/or paid md invested. so the shocking entertainment gets bigger piece of the pie, the actual culturally forward pieces get the budget cuts, to me thats capitalist greed and it does corrupt the culture.
im sure in 5 10 15 years time people will mention how great AND ORIGINAL those amazing interactive art pieces by the fabulous bitforms art curator were. while in reality they're pushing the whole cultural movement of interactive audiovisual 10 years back for the sake of making 125 bucks in editions of 5000. im sorry but thats capitalist greed horseshit. if they want to sell overpriced "software art" the least they could do it actually do pieces which are state of the art. not this basic shit that any university student undergraduate could pull off on a couple bored days.
im sure in 5 10 15 years time people will mention how great AND ORIGINAL those amazing interactive art pieces by the fabulous bitforms art curator were. while in reality they're pushing the whole cultural movement of interactive audiovisual 10 years back for the sake of making 125 bucks in editions of 5000. im sorry but thats capitalist greed horseshit. if they want to sell overpriced "software art" the least they could do it actually do pieces which are state of the art. not this basic shit that any university student undergraduate could pull off on a couple bored days.
why do you keep condemning it? if there are morons who buy this stuff (regardless how shit it technically is and how overly priced it may be), there's apparently a market for it. nothing more nothing less.. it happened and happens in a lot of markets where the good stuff gets tackled by the mediocre/mainstream stuff.. video2000 vs vhs or hddvd vs blueray for example, feeling upset about that is just dumb.
i condemn it because it's servitude corrupts the culture and you people find that funny and/or perfectly acceptable.
which is an oppinion i share in its entirety.
Servitude?
Authors/Creators are not free even when you remove the monetary aspects!
Whole branches of creations are either bound to governments, collectives, private patronage, genres, closed subcultures: structures of power and control.
At least money is something that can change hands without having to share the values or political doctrine of the party your exchanging your goods with. In that way it is a more free than the alternatives you might think about.
Authors/Creators are not free even when you remove the monetary aspects!
Whole branches of creations are either bound to governments, collectives, private patronage, genres, closed subcultures: structures of power and control.
At least money is something that can change hands without having to share the values or political doctrine of the party your exchanging your goods with. In that way it is a more free than the alternatives you might think about.
Heh. Anyway: Darwin(ism) will tell. About art. About mankind.
Hmm Darwinism and art... :\
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Whole branches of creations are either bound to governments, collectives, private patronage, genres, closed subcultures: structures of power and control.
the fact that it has been left to us as a legacy doesnt imply we should keep supporting it's existance. in the same way slavery, fascism, selling daughters and other practices not many generations ago were considered common practice. and yet the people decided it was actually something wrong and worth being culturally altered. dont you think we should break that servitude of culture to the rich and the powerful if only just a little? especially by being in the role of both creators and curators of this type of media.
you prefer to let a new medium subserve itself to the capitalist and intellectual masses for the sheer sake of following tradition? is that your best argument? even the riaa's "think about the artists and their children!" is more morally considerate than that nicolas.
im not claiming "thou shall starve the real artist". only that the creation effort should be on par with the valued price, as oposed to this clearly inflated to simply ostent the "i'm a real artist" label.
it would be great to add/generalize/improve the sponsorship mechanism to support art creation so that rich people would actually pay for the masses, without influencing the creation (too much).
something like Google summer of code is excellent :)
something like Google summer of code is excellent :)
decided to read up some texts on 'basic income'... i don't really understand yet, but it might be of interest. the problem is massive imho, not only concerning digital entertainment, it's a general bug: work has changed but the economic system has not... backward incompatibility ;/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income
http://www-gewi.uni-graz.at/staff/parncutt/BIFT2.htm
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income
http://www-gewi.uni-graz.at/staff/parncutt/BIFT2.htm
...
As with all art, if people are gullible enough to spend a fortune on this sort of thing, you can't blame the artist for cashing in.
It's frustrating to think that sceners could have got in there first, but that's the same as squares on canvas and all the other silly doodles that make big money. It's all in the promotion and the ability to convince the public they're getting something of value.
I find it quite fascinating watching art promoters at work. Smart people.
It's frustrating to think that sceners could have got in there first, but that's the same as squares on canvas and all the other silly doodles that make big money. It's all in the promotion and the ability to convince the public they're getting something of value.
I find it quite fascinating watching art promoters at work. Smart people.
i feel stupid, but
i had to re-read that sentence 4 times before i understood it! a question to all the principle-discussers here on pouet, no matter the actual topic: could you please use normal english?
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you prefer to let a new medium subserve itself to the capitalist and intellectual masses for the sheer sake of following tradition? is that your best argument?
i had to re-read that sentence 4 times before i understood it! a question to all the principle-discussers here on pouet, no matter the actual topic: could you please use normal english?
Skrebbel: Don't worry, I get confused by such sentences too and I'm an English graduate.
Nice link btw!
George Orwell wrote on a similar topic: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm
Nice link btw!
George Orwell wrote on a similar topic: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm
Wade it's not art if you can't masturbate to it! Dragons, tits and muscular warriors with swords. That's what art is all about...
