pouët.net

Sure time to back off, as it becomes trolls vs trolls kind of thing.

smash: you mean the days you hung around in Norway in the summer? ;)

tomkh: The problem here is that I believe it is common sense in the scene that we don't treat someone bad just because he is different in any way, no matter the race, color, sex, sexual preference etc. People are judged by their releases and how they interact with other sceners. This is unlike much of the "real world". The scene is not guilty of any holocaust of whatever kind, and this is why we have hardly any taboos.

So yes, women did not have the same role in the society as man for a couple of thousand years, and do not have human rights in Saudi Arabia today. That's bad, but it has nothing to do with the demo scene. We have always been very friendly towards girls, no matter if female sceners or attention whores.

This also means we have any right to use any artistic freedom, and this includes full freedom of speech. It's pretty much why it's acceptable for gays to call others gay, and why it's acceptable to many black to be called Nigger by blacks - because they can be sure that the words are not part of an attempt to oppress them.

This is the case here. It's OK if we call someone a pussy to make our point that he/she should get over something, because inside the scene the female sex has never been the weak sex anyway.

So: If you believe words should be banned, or if you are easily hurt by words or graphic display of any subject, this community will not make you happy.

And has clearly shown by this thread, the majority of the scene is not willing to limit their artistic freedom (and this includes language) just to make sure nobody gets offended. Instead they want to be able to express in a way that would be regarded as politically incorrect. We can not consider that someone might feel sticking a penis somewhere could be offensive to someone every time before we write "Fuckings to...". A politically correct scene would be a pretty boring scene, I believe.

So please adapt to our standards of being "post-gender". If you wish to do something good for oppressed people, you'll find lots of places that actually could need that outside of the scene.

To the guy who drunk-slept in my sleeping bag:

Sorry for being an asshole for kicking you out of my sleeping bag. But I just washed it before easter and I wanted to sleep.

scamp: with all respect, you are wasting your time, it was mainly a stupid talk between me, T$, bitbreaker, Maali. And besides, as I said, and pretty much all the time was saying, I am not offended at all, just this stuff is mostly boring and not impressive to me. But yeah, I back off, as to be honest, some people that DO get easily offended could be worried and the discussion will start over and over again (noooo!).

And to those who claimed that Viprinet is sexist (both with the banner back at Breakpoint, and after this year's revision where I had a 'fleshlight' picture in my job presentation):

Your standards are dishonest and broken.

At Viprinet we have an ethics commission, and for example we have the following rule when it comes to doing business in a country:

We imagine a hypothetical sales guy that has to fly to that country, visiting a customer. The hypothetical sales guy is female, gay, smokes pot and does not believe in the existence of any god. He enters immigration in that country at the airport, and openly says that he is female, gay, smokes pot and does not believe in god. If at this point he can pass, we do business in the country. If he gets shot or put into jail, we don't.

Due to this we for example are not doing business in Saudi Arabia, and every week are rejecting requests from there.

Also, at Viprinet everybody openly lives their personal style of life, and we have all kinds of sexual orientations, and nobody has to hide anything.

None of the few weird gender-war guys (!) in here had the slightest look at this - it's laid out quite clearly on our website, and well, also easily to spot at revision that we are a very diverse bunch. Instead we get called sexist because in all our public presentations and adverts we are politically incorrect and do things that other company PR departments would say "you can not do that!". But it is my believe that there shouldn't be anything you can't make fun of.

This gender war bullshit right now is a big thing inside the german part of the hacking community, and it's pretty much destroying it. Same thing is going on at Universities. These days far more time is spent on making sure your language is not offending to anyone, instead of ACTUALLY changing things and ACTING differently.

So if you really care, start CHANGING things instead of trying to censor language and expression. It the existence of mankind, blackmailing talking about something has never resulted in that thing stopping.

scamp: But as we briefly talked about this on IRC before (the context was the Viprinet slide with a fleshlight on it), there's a thin line between being able to say what you want without the fear of offending someone, and bullying.

Hm you posted again before I reacted; I don't think having an open accepting company policy automatically means that you can't do something that is not welcoming. The two are not mutually exclusive.

But I think this is the less interesting part of the discussion, I personally have a thick enough skin to not mind the Viprinet banner or a beamslide like that (which I did not see). At the same time I can see how someone might not, but I don't want to talk for them since I don't share their opinion.

For me the excessive drinking and the results of it is a much more contentious issue.

i'm already looking forward to next year's viprinet banner. i hope it's so gay it'll give Freddy Mercury's corpse a boner! (also a wordplay, tomkh.. just to be sure)

Maali: yeah, yeah, I get it, you can be entertaining from time to time ;)

Tom, I'd gladly make fun of those to (those evil, sexist, meat-eating, boozing pornwatchers) - but holy people are just more fun and easier to get a reaction from. Not getting excited about hardcore stuff (which is what? porn? drinking? ...?) obviously gets you pretty excited - you could, possibly, just ignore it instead of getting all excited. I, personally, enjoy the crazy, revolting, dangerous booze stories, mainly of my youth, some of which come from outside the demoscene and are as such far more extreme than what I have read here.

Mind you, I do expect people to strike back, the idea of being provocative is of course to provoke a reaction (sort of comes with the expression).

But if the reaction is to start asking for rules and politics, then I think it's a threat towards the demoscene spirit, not to forget, extremely boring.

curt_cool: Fine, I agree. I think the whole topic started, because some people crossed the line (i.e.Natalya case or sexism towards visiting girlfriends). And those who knows me in person can assure you that I'm pretty far from holy, still...I actually do get seriously excited (more than with drinking or prn) about coding/math/geometry etc... call me strange, but I cannot help myself here;)

OK, here's a half-baked idea:

A message of "don't do anything that might possibly offend some hypothetical easily-offended person" isn't going to fly in the demoscene. I get it.

How about a code of conduct / house rules / mission statement / whatever the hell you want to call it, based around the principle of "exercise your freedoms, but do not encroach on other people's freedoms"?

Freedom of expression. Freedom to enjoy the party with loud music and booze. Freedom to enjoy the party WITHOUT those things. Freedom from intimidation. Freedom to sleep without being puked on. Freedom to drive a tank through the partyplace. Freedom to not be run over by a tank.

Needs a bunch of work to make sure it's not just a load of meaningless platitudes or open to abuse ("what about my freedom to grab your ass, lol"). But does this seem like a vaguely promising path to head down?

Or, you know, just take these rules (exchange Sweden with your country of choice):

http://gerp.demoose.se/info.html

Is Gerp planned fo this year?

Gasman: Immanuel Kant beat you to a finalized version of that philosohy by a few hundred years

welcome to $demoparty, standards of decency apply. act responsible. have fun.

/thread

And get off my sleeping bag!

ITT: failure to ignore/ban troles

Trying to have discussions like these in a place where shitposting carries zero risk isn't going to work

Farfar has leading.
The only rule that applies is the Golden Rule.

jeah good point...
When I talk to "normal" people, they are all like
"do you remember... when we did... back in the days..."
always in the past.

I preferr "do you remember, once we did this..."
like 3 weeks ago? :-)

thats living. Not just being alive...

I'm not drunk anymore at parties. It is not worth the headache. (No pun intended)

ich denke der ein oder andere sollte einfach mal ordentlich ficken. lol!

Hello, humourless PC feminazi SJW vegetarian here:

Haven't read all the posts in this thread, but just wanted to let you know I had a blast at Revision. Even with my super delicate special snowflake sensibilities I didn't find anything to be offended by, though I tried my hardest (as I always do). I thought everyone I met was very respectful, and there was no moment during the event where I felt that some group of people were being unduly discriminated against. I'm sorry if this ruined the party for any of you, if that was the case then maybe we can work out some kind of compromise?

Special kudos to BriteLite for generously sharing some of his bottle of Zubrowka while we were waiting for the prize ceremony.