What if USA had embraced the Demoscene?
category: residue [glöplog]
I came to think of this from a random Amiga demo posted on Facebook. (No, the demo or my nostalgic feeling *really* don't matter!)
USA got new computers before anyone, and obviously the A1000 years before Europe. Yet, the Demoscene seems an extremely European thing. Americans do not get it. Not in 2021, not ever.
Let's go back to 1977. Apple II, awesome Homebrew movement (I would say, historic!) and even before that, the BASIC listings, Star Trek Offline, and maze games, identical to the publications in Europe around 1983, almost a decade later. All the makings and trimmings were there.
Then the 1980s happened in America. There's a big mystery here from 1980 to 1985 - zero home computers bought, no PCs either, and in 1984-5, NES, Amiga 1000, Atari ST, PCjr, PC clones, Mac, C64 a few years old by now, MSX, Spectrum in USA, a Smörgåsbord of options.
Basically not a peep out of the US (Demoscene wise) since then.
1. Is the Demoscene a purely European thing? All-but-US thing? (Australia, etc) What the hell happened after Apple II etc??
2. Disregarding the Demoscene completely, did the US become completely uninterested in computers in 1980-1985?? And perhaps beyond. Extremely few computers or even consoles were bought even until 1992?
I'm very interested in this. Let's hear a roar from the US demosceners what it be like back then. :)
USA got new computers before anyone, and obviously the A1000 years before Europe. Yet, the Demoscene seems an extremely European thing. Americans do not get it. Not in 2021, not ever.
Let's go back to 1977. Apple II, awesome Homebrew movement (I would say, historic!) and even before that, the BASIC listings, Star Trek Offline, and maze games, identical to the publications in Europe around 1983, almost a decade later. All the makings and trimmings were there.
Then the 1980s happened in America. There's a big mystery here from 1980 to 1985 - zero home computers bought, no PCs either, and in 1984-5, NES, Amiga 1000, Atari ST, PCjr, PC clones, Mac, C64 a few years old by now, MSX, Spectrum in USA, a Smörgåsbord of options.
Basically not a peep out of the US (Demoscene wise) since then.
1. Is the Demoscene a purely European thing? All-but-US thing? (Australia, etc) What the hell happened after Apple II etc??
2. Disregarding the Demoscene completely, did the US become completely uninterested in computers in 1980-1985?? And perhaps beyond. Extremely few computers or even consoles were bought even until 1992?
I'm very interested in this. Let's hear a roar from the US demosceners what it be like back then. :)
Crap. Forgot to deliver on title. This was my original alternate reality idea: What if USA had?
Things is, they not only had the Homebrew Scene advantage but platform release time advantage as we know.
I wanted to say they could have incited flame and competition into the Demoscene for us Europeans to merely chase always 1-2 years behind hardware releases(!)
Things is, they not only had the Homebrew Scene advantage but platform release time advantage as we know.
I wanted to say they could have incited flame and competition into the Demoscene for us Europeans to merely chase always 1-2 years behind hardware releases(!)
ah, the next iteration of this old discussion again!
Pablo Made Up Meme Name, whoever you are, it's not a discussion. It's an investigation! One that doesn't yet have an answer.
For the sake of Spock, please raise an eyebrow and say, "Curious."
For the sake of Spock, please raise an eyebrow and say, "Curious."
Quote:
Then the 1980s happened in America. There's a big mystery here from 1980 to 1985 - zero home computers bought, no PCs either
...wat?
USA! USA! USA! ... I think they stayed with their beloved nintendos...
It's just one data point, but I'm from the USA and became a Demoscene fan some time around 1991 or so.
Since Demoscene has its roots in the cracker scene and their credit screens at the beginning of the cracked games: Was there a cracker scene in the US? Or was that mostly Euro based?
And I don't think in the US culture abstract art does not have a high value. I think they value art more that connects with its audience through an expression of thought (opinion or story), that the audience can build a relationship with by either agreeing, disagreeing or gaining inspiration for personal growth. Which is probably one of the reason why US based popular visual and aural art (film, series, music) is so successful, because it easily connects with its audience (because it cares to build a connection through a personal lens). Demoscene art is mostly abstract and does not have a specific meaning or communicates a position or a story, so it would not surprise me if artists from the US look into other directions (like using computer graphics for the TV, movie or gaming industry, which is all about communicating a thought or story though the visual medium).
And I don't think in the US culture abstract art does not have a high value. I think they value art more that connects with its audience through an expression of thought (opinion or story), that the audience can build a relationship with by either agreeing, disagreeing or gaining inspiration for personal growth. Which is probably one of the reason why US based popular visual and aural art (film, series, music) is so successful, because it easily connects with its audience (because it cares to build a connection through a personal lens). Demoscene art is mostly abstract and does not have a specific meaning or communicates a position or a story, so it would not surprise me if artists from the US look into other directions (like using computer graphics for the TV, movie or gaming industry, which is all about communicating a thought or story though the visual medium).
.... BTW one of the reason why ASD is my fav demo group, because they are basically story tellers that use demos as the medium to present their story to the audience.
I'll just leave a few references here.
The Shark/INC. ‘May You Pirate In Interesting Times: A Peek into the North American C64 Scene (circa 1983-1990), and Other Ramblings’. Recollection, no. 1 (2006). http://www.atlantis-prophecy.org/recollection/?load=online_issues&issue=0&sub=article&id=6.
Wasiak, Patryk. ‘“Amis and Euros.” Software Import and Contacts Between European and American Cracking Scenes’. WiderScreen, no. 1–2 (2014). http://widerscreen.fi/numerot/2014-1-2/amis-euros-software-import-contacts-european-american-cracking-scenes/.
Reunanen, Markku, Patryk Wasiak, and Daniel Botz. ‘Crack Intros: Piracy, Creativity and Communication’. International Journal of Communication 9 (2015): 798–817. https://ijoc.org/index.php/ijoc/article/view/3731/1345
The Shark/INC. ‘May You Pirate In Interesting Times: A Peek into the North American C64 Scene (circa 1983-1990), and Other Ramblings’. Recollection, no. 1 (2006). http://www.atlantis-prophecy.org/recollection/?load=online_issues&issue=0&sub=article&id=6.
Wasiak, Patryk. ‘“Amis and Euros.” Software Import and Contacts Between European and American Cracking Scenes’. WiderScreen, no. 1–2 (2014). http://widerscreen.fi/numerot/2014-1-2/amis-euros-software-import-contacts-european-american-cracking-scenes/.
Reunanen, Markku, Patryk Wasiak, and Daniel Botz. ‘Crack Intros: Piracy, Creativity and Communication’. International Journal of Communication 9 (2015): 798–817. https://ijoc.org/index.php/ijoc/article/view/3731/1345
Quote:
What if USA had embraced the Demoscene?
FARBRUSACH
Good read by The Shark
I meant this: There was no Demoscene in the US, because no demos got released by US groups, no demoparties, etc. It's true today, too. Why? Americans come across as competitive and liking art, and many are into "retro in general", getting their groove on with retro games and retro hardware. But demos, what's that?
USA had their computer meetings and PD scene in the 1970s and a few years into the 1980s on 1970s computers. We had that same scene for computers released early (for Europe) here: Xeroxed newsletters from computer-specific clubs with xeroxed newsletters, BASIC listings, and PD. This scene was about learning to program in BASIC and finding out what your 8-bit could do, but pokes instead of cracking and no demos.
The first cracktros may have inspired the first Demoscene demo which started the Demoscene. But the cracktros themselves were not about being competitive and spread on their own, but messaging and contact info to go with the crack. Rather, the cracking groups ordered a cracktro from a coder, typically a demo coder who was not a group member.
The first US cracktros were on computers like Apple II and as simple affairs as the ones on C64, mostly picture+scroller with message. It could be that in the US there was never a 'rulez' cracktro that made someone else want to code a standalone effect to beat it. That would explain why the Demoscene didn't happen there in the 1970s.
Beginning in 1989, there would be a reverse flow of games from Europe USA to with cracktros that would show what home computers could do. Why not then?
For computing or games, there was nothing to compete with home computing then; only those with very rich daddies could borrow his 386 with EGA, and even that did not have enough horsepower to fill a screen buffer. Maybe they went on a console craze and were happy shelling out $50 for each 8-bit (and later 16-bit) cartridge game. As we know, you can't program anything for a console because it's a black box product to be consumed (this is also the reason for so few console demos in the European Demoscene).
Perhaps consoles were seen as the only bang for buck (as long as you owned less than a handful of games), and this sealed the fate for the Demoscene getting a foothold in the USA in 1989?
Many years later with Pentium and VGA the chance was there again, but it was Europeans releasing PC demos. The USA certainly started buying PCs in great numbers in the late 1990s. Why not then?
I think it is a mystery. It would seem that the Demoscene is extra unattractive to Americans. If you read computer magazines from the time, you'd get the impression a lot of Americans were into computers. And for decades, many Americans are computer programmers with an avid interest. Just not demos. Why?
The Demoscene is a waste of time yes, but it's a nice waste of time, just like playing games. So I'd love to find out why it never caught on, especially since most computer models were released there first and they'd be first in on the hype.
USA had their computer meetings and PD scene in the 1970s and a few years into the 1980s on 1970s computers. We had that same scene for computers released early (for Europe) here: Xeroxed newsletters from computer-specific clubs with xeroxed newsletters, BASIC listings, and PD. This scene was about learning to program in BASIC and finding out what your 8-bit could do, but pokes instead of cracking and no demos.
The first cracktros may have inspired the first Demoscene demo which started the Demoscene. But the cracktros themselves were not about being competitive and spread on their own, but messaging and contact info to go with the crack. Rather, the cracking groups ordered a cracktro from a coder, typically a demo coder who was not a group member.
The first US cracktros were on computers like Apple II and as simple affairs as the ones on C64, mostly picture+scroller with message. It could be that in the US there was never a 'rulez' cracktro that made someone else want to code a standalone effect to beat it. That would explain why the Demoscene didn't happen there in the 1970s.
Beginning in 1989, there would be a reverse flow of games from Europe USA to with cracktros that would show what home computers could do. Why not then?
For computing or games, there was nothing to compete with home computing then; only those with very rich daddies could borrow his 386 with EGA, and even that did not have enough horsepower to fill a screen buffer. Maybe they went on a console craze and were happy shelling out $50 for each 8-bit (and later 16-bit) cartridge game. As we know, you can't program anything for a console because it's a black box product to be consumed (this is also the reason for so few console demos in the European Demoscene).
Perhaps consoles were seen as the only bang for buck (as long as you owned less than a handful of games), and this sealed the fate for the Demoscene getting a foothold in the USA in 1989?
Many years later with Pentium and VGA the chance was there again, but it was Europeans releasing PC demos. The USA certainly started buying PCs in great numbers in the late 1990s. Why not then?
I think it is a mystery. It would seem that the Demoscene is extra unattractive to Americans. If you read computer magazines from the time, you'd get the impression a lot of Americans were into computers. And for decades, many Americans are computer programmers with an avid interest. Just not demos. Why?
The Demoscene is a waste of time yes, but it's a nice waste of time, just like playing games. So I'd love to find out why it never caught on, especially since most computer models were released there first and they'd be first in on the hype.
Here's a small clue for one of the many reasons: Most of Europe has free college.
I know you, Gargaj. It would be nice to dismiss it with a pejorative or jaded view. But Americans didn't graduate from college only at 1980 and no other year.
Consoles to dismiss it is also unsatisfactory. They got unlicensed software devkits very late.
Computer magazines reflect the same excitement about computers and software in the US as in Europe.
This leaves the mystery.
Some key event that did not kickstart excitement about the Demoscene. The US certainly had the cracktros; any console craze would translate to computer game craze from an existing one plus console cartridge pricing; what stopped US from competing & greeting for the sake of it?
Consoles to dismiss it is also unsatisfactory. They got unlicensed software devkits very late.
Computer magazines reflect the same excitement about computers and software in the US as in Europe.
This leaves the mystery.
Some key event that did not kickstart excitement about the Demoscene. The US certainly had the cracktros; any console craze would translate to computer game craze from an existing one plus console cartridge pricing; what stopped US from competing & greeting for the sake of it?
I knew I'd regret posting.
Maybe the disinterest in computer demos in the USA is because many Americans are deeply religious and the aesthetic views of Christianity do not match the demoscene aesthetics.
photon it seems to me that you made up your mind about it anyways already, what's the point in discussing?
How much is a demo and all it's associated work worth in dollars in a post-Reagan north America ?
You know, I'm kinda glad this thread was marked residue. If I kept seeing it on the main page my eyes would've hurt from rolling up too much. From a European perspective, maybe Gloom and Gargaj are qualified to discuss this, based on NVScene experience, and maybe Dipswitch as well, based on his awesome research abilities. But, I had to go click on the BBS page, so now I've finally seen it.
Over my nearly 30 years of interest, I've seen my fair share of HEY US Y U NO DEMOSCENE questions. There's no simple answer, but there's plenty to discuss.
Let's start with the 1980's. For kids in the US, game consoles were all the rage. In Europe, home computers were all the rage. The latter were much easier to tinker with. Not to say there weren't US kids with home computers, just not enough to build creative scenes the size of Europe's.
Now onto the 1990's. Computer-related scenes are starting to sprout. You have BBS groups, cracking/warez groups, ANSI/art groups, tracker music groups, and yes, some demo groups. But the other groups are what make up the majority of the US "scene". The culture is there, just not doing quite the same things Europe is. More importantly, the difficulty in arranging and attracting people to demo parties in the US (and North America) causes the demo scene there to remain stagnant. The social aspect never takes off.
Then onto the 2000's. Europe has built a strong demoscene foundation by now, so it soldiers on, with some sticking around for nostalgia's sake, and others joining and bringing in some new ideas. In the US, there's nothing much to build on, so young talent goes elsewhere. The game industry, graphics design, personal projects. There was a new chiptune/8-bit scene (I went to a few Blip Festivals, which were packed and pretty wild, although nothing like Europe's demo parties) and general homebrew tinkering interest, though.
So let's sum up with a few bullet points:
- Less devotion to home computers growing up
- Long distances and cultural gathering rules making it harder for young people to hold large events
- The cultural differences, the lure of the game industry, less emphasis on art in society
- (insert favorite meme here)
But there are some dead-end arguments as well. There is talent here, there is awareness here, and there is even interest here. There just weren't similar enough roots for it to go in the same direction you did.
Over my nearly 30 years of interest, I've seen my fair share of HEY US Y U NO DEMOSCENE questions. There's no simple answer, but there's plenty to discuss.
Let's start with the 1980's. For kids in the US, game consoles were all the rage. In Europe, home computers were all the rage. The latter were much easier to tinker with. Not to say there weren't US kids with home computers, just not enough to build creative scenes the size of Europe's.
Now onto the 1990's. Computer-related scenes are starting to sprout. You have BBS groups, cracking/warez groups, ANSI/art groups, tracker music groups, and yes, some demo groups. But the other groups are what make up the majority of the US "scene". The culture is there, just not doing quite the same things Europe is. More importantly, the difficulty in arranging and attracting people to demo parties in the US (and North America) causes the demo scene there to remain stagnant. The social aspect never takes off.
Then onto the 2000's. Europe has built a strong demoscene foundation by now, so it soldiers on, with some sticking around for nostalgia's sake, and others joining and bringing in some new ideas. In the US, there's nothing much to build on, so young talent goes elsewhere. The game industry, graphics design, personal projects. There was a new chiptune/8-bit scene (I went to a few Blip Festivals, which were packed and pretty wild, although nothing like Europe's demo parties) and general homebrew tinkering interest, though.
So let's sum up with a few bullet points:
- Less devotion to home computers growing up
- Long distances and cultural gathering rules making it harder for young people to hold large events
- The cultural differences, the lure of the game industry, less emphasis on art in society
- (insert favorite meme here)
But there are some dead-end arguments as well. There is talent here, there is awareness here, and there is even interest here. There just weren't similar enough roots for it to go in the same direction you did.
next time, embrace a little bit harder!
and embrace eternity
Probably Gargaj meant is that with free college you have time for yourself and don't need to spend it working. Makes a lot of sense in my head. It's art for art's sake, without a commercial drive behind it.